Here is a cool article I found on slashdot.org:

http://www.willametteweek.com/story.php?story=4764

Hmm for a second when I reading this I thought I was a victim of this URL spoofing.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?...%5Bln%5D;833786

but then I realized I was on my FreeBSD box running mozilla (long night last night, running form the fire dpt ).

Yeah there is is, I (filtered) you not, they are telling you not to CLICK on LINKS, WTF? If there where ½ normal individuals and not scum sucking [filtered] they would tell you to use a superior product that doesn't have these horrible debilitating flaws.

How can you use a product form these people?

What about this link:

http://www.eeye.com/html/Research/Upcoming/index.html

That is exceptionable, what ever happened to Microsoft saying to took longer for open source software to patch? Toughs basters with there lies!

How can you people use this software! You are on a security forum! Are you not concerned with computer security!?

Now a common rebuttal to the whole unix/windows security issue is that more people use windows so more security flaws are looked for in the windows OS. My response to that is:

1: Why does Microsoft make windows? They make it to make money. Open-Source software is made by people for people to use. Since Microsoft makes windows to make money from poor saps like you they don't test there software enough becase it requires time and effort that Microsoft has to pay for. They relay on you reporting bugs. They have admitted to this and in there contract that you have to agree to before installing any of there software, it clearly states that there product is "not for actual use."

2: It is easer to look for a vulnerability in software where you have the source code. In fact I have seen perl code looking for regular expressions that goes though source code looking for such "off by one" and other possible exploitable coding habits.

3: Okay lets say Microsoft is right, it doesn't change the fact that there are less vulnerability found in Open Source software, thus when it comes down to it it is SAFER FOR YOU TO USE. There is NO argument at ALL to counter that.

Other reasons:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/28/technology/mydoom_costs/
Well if everyone used Unix then the world would have saved $250m. No, I don't necessarily believe that, it is just classic scare tactic news, one of the reasons I don't watch tv. However this does raise my next point. Unix viruses are almost not herd of. There is a reason for that. It is hard for a virus to spread when it doesn't have root privileges. In most cases viruses in the windows world start running on startup on an infected machine by adding a reg-key or adding a line in one of your boot scripts. You can't do anything like that unless you are root on a Unix machine. After using Unix I find it quite retarded that on windows machines the average user it running around as root! In a perfect world where everyone used Unix worms really wouldn't exist. I find it ironic, that sco is attacking the open source community where if it goes down there will be even more windows users, mainly more servers with huge pipes, will be vulnerable to viruses thus making MyDoom more powerful and subsequently DoSing sco even more. Try searching for "activation_crack.scr" on kazaa(k++) I got 343 my friend got 1121, but that is un-verified. That puts the infection in the hundreds of thousands. That isn't everyone with MyDoom that is just people with MyDoom that have kazaa that are on that supper-node that you are searching(there about 12k supper-nodes on the FT network). I would find it even more amusing if MyDoom attacked Microsoft.com, I know mydoom.b does, but I don't think enough people have that strain to take out the mighty hardware that supports Microsoft.com. Thank you Bill you employ Anti-Virus company's. You also helped take out sco! After all they couldn't have done it without your product!

Anyway going on, Yeah BSD not only has the longest uptime in the world, it has the top 50!
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html

No matter what Microsoft tells you, it is cheaper for you to run. I mean they do have money interests in you buying there product. How can something that is FREE and something that can run a lot more stable and isn't as susceptible to viruses be more expensive than Windows 2k3 that costs 3k?? "SQL slammer" anyone? Didn't that teach you that windows is not meant to be used, much less a server?

What about 64 bit chips? They ARE the future. Do you want to run XP 64 which is in the BETA. Microsoft releases software pretty much as a beta. So when they call there software a beta, I would be seriously frightened.

Now I ask why do you use windows? I guess ease of use? Well true Unix does have a learning curve. I suggest reading a how to maybe taking a Unix class at your local Jr Collage, it will be very rewarding. If you use a live-cd installation is a breeze, a LOT easer than installing XP, and thats pretty damn easy (lol some fool the other day paid me $110 for install there copy of XP home on there machine! Like all my clients I gave them MandrakeMove(for free), a great Unix live-cd for newbies).

I guess one of the hardest things in installing software, You pretty much half to use the command line. If you use FreeBSD it really inst that hard because of the ports system, can you type "make install clean" it will download all the dependences and your good to go. Lack of software an issue? There are over 10,000 FREE software titles supported by FreeBSD ports.

Okay okay, games, yeah I understand, I was totally obsessed with Star Craft then Brood War. I played that game for years. I have played that game striate for 36 hours a few times, slept for 24 after that. It was a common for me to play striate for 18 hours each weekend. Lol I remember when I was obsessed with video games so much that my grades started to slip, my parents gave me a 286 or something ridiculous(even though I remember when they where new!) then I got really into MUDs! After one of my 36 hour marathons I asked myself what did I do? I came to the conclusion that I didn't accomplish anything and I stopped playing video games for the most part.

Okay well lets say you still like playing video games. Well many games will work under *nix with WINE (stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator) I know people play Never Winter Nights pretty successfully on there machines. America's Army the most widely played multi-player game has been ported to *nix. As well as a wide wealth of emulators. I find myself popping in some PS1 games like Crono-Cross.

File sharing? Check out: http://www.zeropaid.com/php/top_prog.php?f..._where_type=nix
They got all your favorates, Like Bit Torrent, xMule(edonkey) and even overnet. Ooah did I forget to say FAST-TRACK(kazaa)? Yeah that got that too:
http://gift.sourceforge.net/

Don't even get me started with you black hats that run windows. You are such (filtered) moron script kiddies, I can't think of one exploit that came out for windows before Unix. I have seen it take weeks, sometimes a moth for it to get ported to windows. The security software that you winbloz users have! HORRABLE!! Check this site out:
http://www.insecure.org/tools.html
The number one tool, by far the best hacker tool in the world you winbloz users can use! HAHAHA! Also Paketo's Scanrand, the fastest port scanner in the world that you winbloz users can only dream about! ScanRand dosn't worry about threads, so it can use your full upload to scan(or DoS)! (great for University Connections )

Also I have to admit I think people who use windows are well not to intelligent, in fact I think they are stupid. It is bad for me to think that about someone, but I just don't understand.

Is there any other reason why you use windows? A horrible system that is the chief cause of worms? Do you like being hacked? Do you like your system crashing? Yeah I like that blue on the blue-screen-of-death too! Do you like spending money you really don't have to? Do you like paying [filtered]s to produce bad software? Do you like... [Filtered] my GF just pulled up in my drive way she a *coming* *by* if you now what I mean.

Peace

Fire,
It seems like you want to start a flame war. While you certainly have a right to your opinion, you could express it a little more friendlier. I edited some of your language above [like this]. You filtered a few phrases yourself, but I can tell you're passionate about this, so I'll assume some just slipped through. Passion is good, but we pride ourselves at GSO on a relatively clean board without being prudes.

I'm predominantly a Win user and I'm trying to get religion. I currently have 2 RH boxes and play with Knoppix occasionally (I confess I also have 5 win boxes )

Why do I use Win?

First, that's what the business world used when I entered it; it still uses it predominately. Since most of my security issues come from Win, I have to stay up on it so I can think like those who are trying to get in via Win.

Second, it's easy. Call me lazy or whatever, but even you noted that ease of use is a biggie. Most people can buy a win box, take it home, and do the basics (okay, that's up to some debate... ). Few people can do that with *nix. In fact, intelligent people who know some *nix have trouble with that, myself included.

Ease of use is where Bill's made all his $. And remember, the best product does not always win (pun, pun!). Windows is either best or second in ease of use (Apple may be first). *nix is best in uptime, control, admin-ability, etc. But overall, *nix isn't the best product for the masses...yet.

Third, I've used Win as long as I have because I don't have lots of time to invest in learning a new way of computing (the right way!). I have a job, family, a lawn to mow, a church, etc..... and I don't have tons of time to play and learn (like I would like to).

So does that make me stupid? Not in my opinion. I've chosen what the business world uses, what's easiest, and most importantly, I've chosen my priorities carefully. I've chosen to spend more time serving my family and my community than I've spent learning *nix. In my book, that's a sign of maturity.

I'll keep poking away at it and I'll master it eventually. I love *nix, and the more I learn about it, the more I'm impressed. But *nix ain't my life, it's just a part of it.

Well, just to had my 2 cents...

I'm a linux/win user. lol. I love very much linux for some reasons and I like very much windows for other reasons. I have no problems with the "ease of use" of both OS, but I think you CAN'T say *nix is more user friendly than windows. I think I can say I know very well *nix but on some boxes, you have to be very good to install some *nix without problems. And yes, I know knoppix, but not all *nix distribs are so easy to install. And for the rest, it's much easier to do the basics with windows, it's a fact, sorry. (you can make a test with different people and you will see hu hu...).

Another thing : ok, *nix cost no money to buy -BUT- buying the OS is not the only one cost. It's a very well known fact that win boxes cost LESS money along the time (too long to explain here, but do a google search and you will understand what I mean) than *nix boxes to administrate.

Something else : I'm sure everyone here using Windows OS have buy it legally (no ?) , but but... lots of people don't. When you say *nix cost nothing ... Well, face the reality : do you know how many pirated copies of windows OS are used ? A lot . So, it seems like lots of people had paid NOTHING even for windows OS, so they don't mind when you say *nix cost nothing...

As a conclusion, I want to say like beardednose that i'm not stupid because i'm using windows OS. And you know what ? One of the main software i'm using on windows doesn't even exist on linux. (it's a specifical professionnal music software, no equivalents on linux yet).
But I know very well *nix OS. I even programmed LOT of usefull stuff on *nix OS. But i'm using Win too and I know why i'm using Win too and I know I'm right (lol). Finally, I don't have too choose. I like both OS with their pros and cons, and make the choice to use both of them.

Am I stupid for that ??...


Starsky32.

Sorry for my poor english, but I have not enough time to check my mistakes, maybe I will edit it later...

well i have both redhat and windows installed and the 1 thing thats stopping me from usin redhat is that the nvidia driver burns my eyes (am im too busy to fix it )

other that that id say windows for games (yes i have heard of winex) and linux for development and internet

In my oppinion, you can do everything you want to on linux just as easy as you can on windows. The only windows machines I have now are bitch boxes I've setup to test new hacks against.

Same reason i watch tv, to enjoy myself.

i think windows is the best OS for gaming and for home/personal use , it has f***en bugs and exploits , but also all drivers are installed easily , and a friendly user interface and also instead of thinking what programs u can run on *nix that runs on windows , why dont u secure ur windows system , and think of programs u can run on ur windows system that run on *nix , i think u will be satisfied ..

Fire,
You have a nice controlled burn going....

Two of you said that you can do anything on either *nix or Win easily. However, that is far from the case with most folks, including myself.

I hope to join your ranks in that respect someday.

the 1st reason why i am running windows is playing gamez thats the most important subject 4 win ;D
but linux is nice too
i use knoppix /redhat and cygwin (thats not a real linux i know h3h3)
i think for some application its better to use win and for other things like security holes linux is the best app that i can use

sorry 4 my worse english but i think that you'll understand my meaning h3h3


greeetZ fl4Shb4Ck

hm i wouldn't agree with the fact that *nix is less vulnerable than windows
there are enough exploits for *nix
and worms does not exist for *nix ?
the first worm ever written was for unix...
that mydoom and all the other triggers windows is in my opinion only resulted in the fact that beginner and noobs uses it and open attachments from emails without any thoughts of the danger and unix is used by creak and professional who wouldn't do that
i have tried suse 6.0 7.2 and 8.0 and none of them was able to install proper
the lilo boot destroys my MBR
for that reason i install cygwin.

greetz

i agree with SyN. the only thing i use windows for is playing games and testing out hacks. i can do everything i need in linux and i have personally hardened my system so i can trust that it's as secure as it can be at this moment with windows, you can never be sure

For servers and web applications there are far *more* exploits that come out for open source software derivatives than there are for their commercial equivalents. But I don't think the number of exploits is necessarily a bad thing, cause with the code right there, someone is more likely to find a flaw and publish it.

With commercial software, there is little point in advertising a security exploit. If you find it, you can hold on to it for ages and use it continually to exploit machines. With open source software, there is a greater incentive to publish the exploit so that you get "credit" for finding it first. Eventually someone is going to publish the exploit if the code you are exploiting is open source. The average security consultant wants to be the one who found the exploit cause it is free advertising.

Despite everything, I still think the most secure web server is Apache on a Windows box. Just throw it behind a firewall with port 80 and whatever management ports you need (OpenSSH for Windows, VNC, Cerberus FTP) and you've got a secure machine that you can still access.

I've yet to find an FTP server software for windows that has had *MORE* exploits than the current FTP servers available for *nix. Most notably, wu-ftp daemon. That thing has had more holes in it than the broad side of my uncle's barn the day after the fourth of July back in 1997.

The reality is, if you use personal firewall software like Kerio and an actual firewall for your Internet, you're just as secure if not better than a Linux client that might have a personal firewall (but you don't know how to set up).

why ?
its the only os i used from 98 to xp
cheers

when i started using a computer my OS was DOS using my old forgotten TANDY COCO3. up until now i've been using a microsoft OS's. Y? simpy because windows OS is more available to everyone, and even though it has lots of security exploits and vulnerabilities, i am still able to keep it running on tip top shape because of their patches. i cannot ignore the challenges that come with using windows.

i had a red hat partition on my hard drive, but i don't use it because i have a laptop, and drivers for my modem aren't easy to find and install.

so i use windows (from 95 to 2000), and i can do everything with.
i don't need a hight secure computer, so windows is a good os.

but when i would have time to find all the good drivers, install them, and learn linux, i think i would use it preferently

Simple as Support.

Trying to get functionality out of my current linux distro - RH8&9, has been a part time job. Took me months of searching and fiddling on and off, to get the nvidia video drivers for my ASUS MoBO working, the builtin LAN still doesn't work, and even basic everyday uses have required tedious searching through archived mailing lists to find undocumented hacks. There's a lot of things I can do on it though so its worth messing with.

Linux is nice but its also a pain. When I want to do something simple and have it just work I generally have to turn to Windows.

I use windows so that i can code in VS.NET
Regards
~Faceless Master

I use windows because of the wide range of programs available for it... you'll rarely find a game for linux as you can find almost any game for windows etc...

it's also the industries de facto (like it or not)

upon thinking about it edit:

I see your opinions fire* and as a 100% newly converted linux user, (I've used linux before but never in as much detail as the last month or so) I've realized I could never look at windows the same anymore... I seriously load up winxp and I feel disgusted by just the looks of it simply because it's not the way I want it to be say like my Linux box, lol It's exactly the way I want it to be.

Secondly I'm beginning to find the long way is the easy way, I am finding updating in linux is easier than updating in windows.... well because i simply type:
su
yast
->
(down)
enter
enter
ALT+A
ALT+O
done.

even easier than windows and with aterms nice transparent backgrounds I get to look at the prettyness while i SU.

I just loooooooove linux. Ive used Gentoo and alotta other distro's.

I love GUIs thats really why i liek windows call me whatever you want but i like for my comp to llok cool and windows has got that not to mention a hell of a lot of programs bu tlinux is FAST i installed lindows [www.lindows.com] and it was cool fast and had a nice interface but still it isnt perfect (i know windows aint either) but it crashes alot more than XP does and as long as i have a firewall my security is fine so im not worried about the vulns and exploiuts with windows so until *nix actually makes a really nice OS with a nice interface im stiking to windows cause im stubborn and dont want to change

Pure lazyness
Years of MS has made me adicted to the ease of set up.
Like most ppl i would like to try linx etc............... one day

i use windows because it comes with my laptop
i use windows because i earn my living with it
i use windows because i have so much experience developing applications on/for it
i use windows because my clients use it

be4 using linux/unix i would prefer using other OS first

Because I like to play games, and honestly, *nix has none that are worth my time. Well, except for a few older text games.

Also, I dislike the nix GUI's. Gnome and KDE just weren't written well enough for my tastes. With all the different ways of coding things in an open source environment, everyone wants to make stuff work their own way, which results in no standardization. I just wanted a freaking universal copy/paste command, but it's different for every app I tried. Even when I just clicked the menu and said "paste this dagnabbit", it would paste something totally different. Unacceptable. I'll stick with the good old no-frills command line stuffs.

by reading the previous posts i could say that most/majority prefer using windows.
we may have our own reasons (security, user friendliness, standards, cost, bugs, etc), but for sure we can't convince each other freely to change from one OS to d other, considering of course that others use both or even uses other OS.

surely bill gates would do everything it take so that windows OSs would dominate the market and/or our living.

I also started with Dos and fell in love with windows after 95 was released. I have been using windows ever since . Recenlty i have been playing with free Bsd and Linux and i must say that eventhough i am new to the OS you can tell it is a far more secure OS . For all you die hard windows users , Bsd is not that hard to pick up on even easier if you're familair with MS Dos.

interesting, how would you compare bsd to say redhat or mandrake like the difference in commands and standard programs, layout, etc

also i wonder where u would get it from cause downloading is not an option (the country i live in doesnt believe much in this new fangled broadband thingy)

Well, I think it's pretty simple that Windows not only is the most popular OS, meaning if you're going to develop commercial software or games, you're going to to want to learn and use Windows... Even though Linux is still optional for personal use. I think Windows got popular in the first place just because that it's a really good for development, because of the way everything is so open... I really think that people committing to Windows REALLY will end up slowing down technology since people these days, even programmers and developers, consider Microsoft to BE standards rather than anybody really making global standards for programming and internet use... I think when people realize that it's a bad idea to have commercial releases all limited to MS, there will be a huge hassel just to make standards... But one day, there will be such tight standards on things that we could easily compile a program for 12 different operating systems without trouble, and we'll be able to use scripting languages that are both flexable and secure. Right now, since there is only really MS, and lower less-popular OSes and everything, there isn't any incentive for MS to give a damn about anybody but themselves, and users of software are totally ignorant (which you HAVE to expect).

Right now, we just seem to keep flying forwards with technology since it still fascinates people, but when you are learning DirectX, the last thing on your mind is that Microsoft might start charging people $10,000 to own an SDK... What if the only game console requires use of this SDK, and OpenGL is obsolete? Nothing stops this from happening, since everyday users of Windows just really don't give a damn about what a programmer thinks.

I told my friend (who is just a total user) all of my points against Microsoft, and he could really care less, since his computer runs, and it's not his damn problem if in 20 years programmers have to bend over in order to get their software published.

I have about 1,000,000 similar arguements about standards ranging from compilors, to hardware, to scripting languages... The only thing I can figure, is that our technology and software isn't all as nice and clean as we'd like to see it as, since we're still comparing the new video game on GCN to the NES, and thinking "Yep, look how far we've come!" I'd say that we aren't doomed as long as there are hackers, crackers, etc... and just lots of people who don't like monopolies.

I use windows because it is the future of computing. Soon, linux will die out (unix is going to be killed because of Itanium + longhorn 64bit).

The future of programming is .net, learn it now and your future career will benefit.

Sure hardcore, diehard unix ppl will flame me, but in the long run you will see that i am right.

p.s. good reason to dislike linux - no drivers, 100% user unfriendly...e.g. i had to recompile the kernel on a laptop, to use a wireless lan card.

LMAO, that's the exact opposite of what I meant...

I think the reason people cling to Windows is because it's the first thing to make a huge impact on personal computers, anything else is just beyond what mainstream users are interested in (making it huge for developers and everything else also)... but as technology and people change with time, we'll NEED to adapt to become more able to use all kinds of different operating systems, since Microsoft doesn't own the world... and not everything that Microsoft says automatically becomes a standard for programming, computers, or technology.

ah but M$ does nearly own the world from a business perspective.

they're unstoppable. windows will be in every fridge, microwave and tv in about 5 years time.

stop fighting what is inevitable.

if you want to be sucessful as an IT professional, M$ is the only future.

hah, what naive perspicacity towards the future... Really, you could say that about a lot of things, but the only way it becomes true is when we start believing it...

Microsoft isn't a godly power, and it's not like people will just simply never look towards other software... It's just that the alternatives have very little to offer (or don't show it to the mainstream)... And change takes time. The only reason Microsoft would last for very long is if people just don't care, and trust me...

If it really came to the point where Americans just don't care, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese took lead of the evolution of software... But I don't think it'll be so simple as a bunch of people just believing that there is no way for Microsoft to fall...

i agree that usually nothing lasts forever, and one firms reign at the top must end one day.

but i cant see that happening any day soon. the market share in the corporate world the M$ enjoys, is really at a level beyond any other firm in history.

outside of business, probably around 90% of home pcs are M$ based.

you just need to look at the cash registers at nearly every shop on the high street, to realise that again M$ has penetrated most markets at a high level.

the list goes on...

it is always possible a new OS will be released, that will one day overthrow M$, i dont think it will be linux though.

in terms of probablilties, even if someone does release a new and vastly superior OS from both a user perspective, and reliability / security...what's chance does it have of success?

Firstly, the corporate world is unlikely to take the risk of changing platform. the retraining costs and the cost of porting interna; software across would be a large disencentive. Plus, firms tend to have a 'herd' instinct, where they will follow the pack, which happens to use M$ - e.g. can you really see Dell supporting another OS? Given nearly all big firms buy from Dell, it is unlikely to give other OS's a chance.

Secondly, the home user will use whatever is sold on the highstreet...i.e. whatever is installed on the pc they buy. Can you see PC World moving to an unknown OS?

Ok now suppose somehow, and OS gets past these hurdles (plus the other 1000,000). M$ when threatened will take an aggressive view, and probably buy the competitor up, hence Windows survives (with improvements from the new OS).

So now I hear you shouting open source cant be bought. Trouble is, open source isnt what big firms will use. The truth is, companies expect to have the support that can only be provided by a commercial organisation. As soon as things go Open source, it becomes not for profit, which leads to poor customer support (i.e. there is no customer).

So, imo M$ is here to stay. They essentially made the PC into what it is today, Bill even invented the original OS, DOS...

Ok that post was a little more rational but I have to contend with a few of your points.

heh, i loved the apples. i still got the original mac running at home (the 1st one).

i meant PC as in IBM PC.

"I agree it looks a little unlikely that linux will overthrow MS, but I think they will continue take market share and reach a decent competive status some day. I'm constantly seeing new flashes of companies and government orgs switching to opensource(many of them outside the US right now)" - this is true. But, outside of government the takeup is small.

In finance, unix is popular, as it is currently used on the high end server for number crunching. similarly, data mining applications with terrabytes of data tend to be unix based. The next few years will decide whether this pattern remains. The itanium sales this year were around 300,000 units. This is quite significant in the high end market, so perhaps once M$ 64bit matures into a stable product their market share will increase here too...

redhat is a good example of a commerical linux release. but at the end of the day, its based on an open source program, so it will never be a big profit maker. i think that the successor to windows / M$ will need to be copyright protected, as investment in an OS to the extent of the level of development we have seen in windows, is only possible when there is a profit to be made.

or maybe im wrong! who knows... this is just my view.

I just don't like monopolistic fields in general, competition is always good for the customer.

Even MS stays #1, having other strong products out there keeping them on their toes prevents MS from making unreasonable demands from companies and leaving them with no alternative.

As they say only time will tell.

I agree open is not a word I would apply to windows, but as far as ease of programming, Linux backward compatibility is a nightmare. Heck you have to reprogram drivers just from upgrading your kernel within the same distro ver.

I use windows because a lot of application developers make programs for it, the UI is much nicer looking (I have tried KDE and I like it too, but Linux with a UI is BUTT SLOW).

Windows 95 with a good UI is still faster than Linux with KDE.

Also, all the software reverse engineering skills I have learned on windows, why let that go to waste

-niko

Well, I was talking more about when Windows was released compatable with IBM, rather than now... By "open" I meant that Windows 3.0 was not as limiting as Apple in writing programs and stuff with an actual GUI... Probably just a bad choice of words to describe anything Windows... Sorry.

oh wow what a bunch of bull. Everyone knows Windows is much easier to use. And security. Lets face it. Most of us don't really have that much to secure!!! Everything in Linux is such a pain in the ass. It seems like everything is slapped together. There is no, like, central plan. What takes me 5min on a windows box takes me 6min on a linux box. Linux has its uses. Its good if you want to spend half your life reading documentation and set something up right. It sucks for USING. More MONEY has been pumped into making Windows easy to use and more TIME has been put into making LINUX better code. The end result is that Windows is easier to use.

My 1 cent,
bard